tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post6791712766276740656..comments2024-03-17T06:03:00.362-04:00Comments on Fiction University: How to Be Your Own Book Doctor Janice Hardyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-37810791569411937492016-12-12T10:31:18.317-05:002016-12-12T10:31:18.317-05:00Most welcome!Most welcome!Janice Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-90825134877412542812016-12-12T10:31:09.649-05:002016-12-12T10:31:09.649-05:00I work way too much :)I work way too much :)Janice Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-82072232421811284882016-12-09T18:56:44.119-05:002016-12-09T18:56:44.119-05:00Thanks Janice for putting all this information in ...Thanks Janice for putting all this information in one post. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02787259249720031535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-30158473456104597322016-12-09T10:24:19.107-05:002016-12-09T10:24:19.107-05:00Can't get enough help on revisions. Thanks fo...Can't get enough help on revisions. Thanks for another winner.<br /><br />You have a "day job"!!!!! I've always wondered how you do all you do already (bows deeply). Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17302225327509532461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-9582849759077981782013-04-26T09:46:42.739-04:002013-04-26T09:46:42.739-04:00"At a certain point, you need critiques that ..."At a certain point, you need critiques that lay readers and writers who aren't published can't give."<br /><br />Yes, I'd have to agree with that to a point. I don't think being published is a requirement if the person critiquing you is knowledgeable. I have several crit partners who are fantastic and unpublished. <br /><br />But I also have published friends who have one reader look at their stuff before it goes to their editor, so it does vary.<br /><br />In general, I think finding folks you trust to help you make the work the best it can be is the best a writer can do. But it's just one opinion. That's why writing is so frustrating. For every "fact" and "rule" there are dozens of exceptions. Janice Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-62358741045643448352013-04-26T09:41:05.809-04:002013-04-26T09:41:05.809-04:00Again, sorry for getting a bit too intense again, ...Again, sorry for getting a bit too intense again, I'm certainly not depressed or anything, and I honestly believe I earned the strides I made, selling my first MG novel being only ONE of those strides.<br /><br />But as I work on my new novel, I've just had certain concerns about where the industry's going, beyond where I personally am as a writer.<br /><br /><br />After all, if I didn't care, I wouldn't comment here or on other blogs, but you're right that writers can get in the habit of being overly pessimistic, and I'm the first to admit I've gone there at times. But I don't stay there.<br /><br />Some of us just recover faster than others.<br /><br />Sometimes when you care about something so much, you let your opinions get too far out of hand, and I do apologize if got too far in self-pity mode. <br /><br />But this time I really was just musing this from both sides, which is why I didn't comment right when this was first posted, I gave myself time to form my comment, which would've been more harsh than I think was today.<br /><br />Taurean Watkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604609379930060667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-7348219283266007162013-04-26T09:29:14.334-04:002013-04-26T09:29:14.334-04:00I guess the main thing I wanted to ask you specifi...I guess the main thing I wanted to ask you specifically was-<br /><br />"Is there not a limit to being your own best editor?"<br /><br />You obviously agreed with me there. I've had so many experiences on my journey as a writer where I felt the odd one out in terms of how much I could edit my own work.<br /><br />I also know many writers who are more skilled in some ways than I am are grappling with this discprency between their ability to revise on their own versus help from those more skilled than they are.<br /><br />It's true that beta-readers are helpful, but I guess I've been reading so much about how beta-readers who aren't published authors themselves yet or work/worked in publishing can only help so much.<br /><br />I'm sorry if some aspects of what I said were overly harsh, but the fact is a lot of the major voices in the industry (From authors to agents, and certainly editors) do often state some variant of-<br /><br />"At a certain point, you need critiques that lay readers and writers who aren't published can't give."<br /><br />I think there is some truth to that. Otherwise, for lots of writers, beta-readers would be enough until we get further along in the process.Taurean Watkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604609379930060667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-72593071014767087782013-04-26T09:23:59.890-04:002013-04-26T09:23:59.890-04:00Taurean, yes, we should all try to understand wher...Taurean, yes, we should all try to understand where a writer comes from. Janice Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-71581276357699108642013-04-26T09:17:12.646-04:002013-04-26T09:17:12.646-04:00Finally, I get what you're saying here-
"...Finally, I get what you're saying here-<br /><br />"Readers are under no obligation to understand what a writer goes through to produce a book. They're buying a product for their own personal use. If you buy a product at the store and are unhappy about it, you don't say "well, the manufacturer must have had a bad day, and he had so much going on, so I guess I'll cut him some slack." Writing might be an art, but books are products. <br /><br />If someone wants to SELL BOOKS they have to treat them as a product that's competing in a crowded market. If all a writer cares about it putting their work out there and whoever reads it reads it, they can do whatever they want. That's a viable option as well. "<br /><br />I think that's just as narrow minded as I get accused of about certain aspects of writing.<br /><br />But I just don't see books as a product the way CDs and toothpaste are. I just don't.<br /><br />But hear me out, I'm also NOT saying "Books aren't products." <br /><br />They're just NOT products the way toothpaste or makeup are, badly written books can't get people sick or cause fatal allergic reactions like makeup or hair care products can, is that so hard to understand, Janice?<br /><br />All I'm saying is that books are different from products we eat, clean, and sleep with. Okay? (Sigh...)<br /><br />Do you think I would've battled countless bouts of doubt, frustration, sleepless nights and tears if I didn't take my craft seriously? NO!<br /><br />But remember, I also said-<br /><br />"I'm not saying we should make excuses, but just TRY to understand it from the writer's perspective, too."<br /><br />You don't have to "Compromise" you ideas about either the business of publishing or the quality of storytelling/writing to see things from both sides.<br /><br />For example, I respect authors like Ellen Hopkins wo can write about things I'm not able or WANT to write myself, okay?<br /><br />I even respect books that while I may not personally like, technical issues or not, they get kids and teens reading who otherwise might not at all. So I do get that more than I admittedly come off at times.<br /><br />That's not me saying the opposite extreme you seem to feel I'm saying. <br /><br />Taurean Watkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604609379930060667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-15172050902035319472013-04-26T09:16:48.692-04:002013-04-26T09:16:48.692-04:00Taurean, I did see that it was mostly a general se...Taurean, I did see that it was mostly a general sense, just that one bit felt personal since you addressed me by name. <br /><br />And we *can* only be our best editors to a certain point. That's why most advice says to find editors and crit partners. But there are ways to make the most of your own editing skills. You do what you can.<br /><br />Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. No post or article or talk can address all the variances of a situation. Advice is usually general. <br /><br />You should never feel forced into anything. It's your work, do what you want. It's normal to feel *pressured* to do more, but try your best to take a step back and re-evaluate. There's nothing wrong with saying "I can't do that, but I can do this." <br /><br />Unless you're given a contract to publish quickly (and even then you have the right to say no or negotiate the time frame) no one is forcing you to publish quickly. Janice Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-62044470592993775672013-04-26T08:57:49.453-04:002013-04-26T08:57:49.453-04:00Okay, I really didn't make things as clear as ...Okay, I really didn't make things as clear as I thought-<br /><br />Janice, you said-<br /><br />"I don't think anyone who is torn about this issue is a whiny brat. (after all this time I thought you knew me better than that) There's a lot for writers to understand and consider these days. I write this blog and offer this advice exactly for those who are torn in an effort to help them figure it all out."<br /> <br />I do know YOU better than that, Janice, I wasn't singling YOU out specifically, really....<br /><br />I'm sorry if it read that way, but I was speaking in general terms, and I do feel there's more to this than simply <br /><br />Also, I was just letting off some steam with my current WIP being a real witch right now. I know lots of authors make a fuss over how much we can self-edit our writing, and I feel (Your blog being the exception) we overestimate how much we can put ourselves in the reader's shoes.<br /><br />As someone who's no stranger to revision, I just feel some writers Who frankly are more pragmatic than me) are deaf to the reality that we can only "Be our own best editor" to a certain point.<br /><br />Especially with the changes that have transpired in publishing in the last decade, I feel some authors take their exceptional ability to self-edit themselves that for granted.<br /><br />Even if it's not any easier for them than newbies like me, they at times project themselves as more snobbish than they might really be, in the best case scenario.<br /><br />Yes, I know there are plenty of authors who only publish a book every few years, but semantics aside, there's a difference between CHOOSING to do that as a process and your unique journey "forced" that to be the case. <br /><br />That's the point I was trying to make, but I guess that came off mean and spiteful, and I'm sorry for that. Sometimes I come off more harsh than I mean to because my efforts to be neutral sound like I'm wishy washy about what I really mean.<br /><br />Even if modern readers love vague endings in novels and stories, they don't them in plain speaking, by which I mean taking a more neutral approach often gets read the opposite of what it intends, hence your reply to my initial reply to this blog post.<br />Taurean Watkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604609379930060667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-9894735211488726512013-04-26T08:10:06.642-04:002013-04-26T08:10:06.642-04:00Taurean, right now, there are multiple options for...Taurean, right now, there are multiple options for writers to choose to publish their work. More than ever. No one HAS to forgo anything, it's a choice. (Even if it might not feel that way sometimes) Self publishing has the most respect and acceptance its ever had. It's a legitimate route now. There's still stigmas, but the more quality work gets self pub'd the more that will fade. <br /><br />I don't know of any writer who wants to publish just one book, so no matter what route you choose, you'll be publishing more than one book. The frequency is up to you. Just because the current thought is "get as many out there as you can" is the most popular, it doesn't mean that's the only way to go.<br /><br />If someone is a fast writer and can produce quality books quickly, good for them and they publish at the rate that makes them happy. <br /><br />If someone is a slow writer and wants to put out a book every few years, good for them and they should do that. <br /><br />IGNORE THE HYPE. Just because technology exists to do something doesn't mean everyone should do it that way.<br /><br />You can design covers for minimal amounts. I'm a professional designer in my day job, so I know this. All it takes is legwork to find someone within your budget.<br /><br />Critique partners are a free way to catch what you can't. There are editors out there who work within budgets. You just have to find them. <br /><br />Good enough is when you decide it is. Others will also decide that, so if a reader expects more and an author didn't provide it, it won't be good enough for them. But that's true of every book. <br /><br />Readers are less picky than other writers. If the story rocks, they overlook errors. But errors DO stand out to readers as well as writers. Would you buy a CD that skipped words or had bad sound? Would you continue to buy that artist if they continually put out a shoddy product? <br /><br />Readers are under no obligation to understand what a writer goes through to produce a book. They're buying a product for their own personal use. If you buy a product at the store and are unhappy about it, you don't say "well, the manufacturer must have had a bad day, and he had so much going on, so I guess I'll cut him some slack." Writing might be an art, but books are products. <br /><br />If someone wants to SELL BOOKS they have to treat them as a product that's competing in a crowded market. If all a writer cares about it putting their work out there and whoever reads it reads it, they can do whatever they want. That's a viable option as well. <br /><br />I'm not sure writers can ever capture the lay reader's experience, but they can try. I known I don't. I might have been able to at one time, but certainly not after four years of doing this blog. What I can do, however, is look at my work as objectively as possible. And reading other books vs your own is a different thing. <br /><br />I don't think anyone who is torn about this issue is a whiny brat. (after all this time I thought you knew me better than that) There's a lot for writers to understand and consider these days. I write this blog and offer this advice exactly for those who are torn in an effort to help them figure it all out. <br /><br />A writer needs to pick the best route and options for them. If one doesn't work, try another. Keep trying until one does work. That could take weeks or years or even decades in some cases. Frustrations are normal and I have the same ones as everyone else, but if a writer lets it stop them, their odds of succeeding drop. If all a writer ever does is complain about it being too hard, then they'll never get anywhere.Janice Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-2699865283374829192013-04-25T16:57:00.656-04:002013-04-25T16:57:00.656-04:00I agree with Susan and Janice on the benefit and n...I agree with Susan and Janice on the benefit and necessity of outside eyes and input.<br /><br />That said, I still feel for authors who felt they HAD to forego the traditional route and self-publish, but couldn't AFFORD a freelance editor, and in order to break into the eBook-only market, you often have to write MORE than ONE book, and given how extensive editing can be, regardless if it's your first book or you hundredth, the cost of hiring editors adds up fast.<br /><br />I often wonder the validity of publishing ebooks at such a fast clip. <br /><br />When all of those ebooks need editing and covers, and covers by themselves can rival home mortgage payments, and I fear this alienates writers with limited incomes who can't even spend thousands on a HOUSE, never mind a cover for ONE book of many that writer can and wants to write.<br /><br />I wish there were more cost-effective ways to edit and revise since as Janice said, we can't catch everything, no matter how self-reliant and detached from our writing we are.<br /><br />While I'm not denying the quality of ebooks (or self-published books, in general) can be very dicey at best, I still wish more lay readers who don't write would just try to understand that most writers go this route for many complex reasons, only ONE of them being creative control.<br /><br />I'm not saying we should make excuses, but just TRY to understand it from the writer's perspective, too.<br /><br />Even if you wouldn't make the same choice as some writers, it doesn't mean you have to treat them like second-class losers, and I'm saying this in a GENERAL sense, not picking on anyone or even myself, in particular. Okay?<br /><br />Janice, when is "Good enough" REALLY good enough? After all, we want people to read the STORY, not stress over errors the do the story an injustice for the reader.<br /><br />How much can writers REALLY recapture the lay reader's experience. <br /><br />I just feel like I'm not the same reader I was since making the decision to write myself.<br /><br />Janice, while you expressed to me (In private) you don't have this problem, can you at least understand those of that do are not whiny brats for feeling torn on this issue?<br /><br />Taurean Watkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604609379930060667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-10171843964668469472013-03-30T08:34:02.748-04:002013-03-30T08:34:02.748-04:00Susan, I agree. I know how valuable my crit partne...Susan, I agree. I know how valuable my crit partners are, and my editor is wonderful. I couldn't imagine not having those outside eyes looking at my work. We can't catch everything. Janice Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-76501424032340994962013-03-25T17:46:11.295-04:002013-03-25T17:46:11.295-04:00These are wonderful questions. I do believe that ...These are wonderful questions. I do believe that no matter how hard you try to be your own editor, there is a part of you that has a huge investment in the book. I have read many self published books and most of them would have benefited from the outside critical editorial POV.<br />The books I loved both had hired editors. Susan B Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10752641433121011158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-29960740120521181762013-03-23T08:20:07.649-04:002013-03-23T08:20:07.649-04:00Julie, glad to be of service :) Good luck with tho...Julie, glad to be of service :) Good luck with those revisions!<br /><br />LinWash, thanks so much!<br /><br />Emily, thanks! I do like to do sampling posts (love that phrase) from time to time. There's so much on the blog to sift through, and having a few posts that hit the major points are like cheat sheets :)<br /><br />Nilah, hope it helps, and best of luck with the rewrite!<br /><br />Carol, totally. Though sometimes you spot things after the first draft that make it easier to up the stakes and the tension. It's usually easier to make something worse that figure out something from whole cloth.<br /><br />Rubianna, I'd probably agree with the tension and stakes. Even when we KNOW why they matter, getting that across to the reader doesn't always work. And low stakes is a very common problem. Growth indeed :) Have you tried revising (or even writing) in layers? For example, I put very little description in on a first draft (just don't like it) so I always have to go back and add that. I'll read through a chapter specifically for that. I'll also do passes for stakes, tension, goals, internalization, etc. I've found it makes it a little easier to focus on one or two things at a time. Eventually you start doing adding all that in from the start since you're ore used to it now.Janice Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-89874117628631322032013-03-22T23:57:17.904-04:002013-03-22T23:57:17.904-04:00Goodness - this post really covers it all. Thanks ...Goodness - this post really covers it all. Thanks for the comprehensive list! I think tension and stakes in every scene that actually works is the most difficult. <br /><br />When revising or critiquing, I look for tension. I think it is one of the hardest to nail. I also look for internalization. I struggle to get enough in there, and I can see when it would strengthen and really change a story. Now just to get internalization in there the first time myself or even the second or third. Growth. All about the growth.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03683787289610071946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-15000967356544649752013-03-22T23:42:56.457-04:002013-03-22T23:42:56.457-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03683787289610071946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-20147397896641516742013-03-21T12:29:41.449-04:002013-03-21T12:29:41.449-04:00Excellent post and advice, and really timely for m...Excellent post and advice, and really timely for me as I'm revising. I realized I need higher stakes and tension! Argh! But good to realize it at this point rather than later. Carol Riggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14092209912983783974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-27414944627191972282013-03-18T19:20:23.745-04:002013-03-18T19:20:23.745-04:00Wow, these are some hard-hitting questions. This i...Wow, these are some hard-hitting questions. This is great timing for me, as I'm about to dive into revising/rewriting. Definitely going to be using this blog post as I go over my manuscript!Nilahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263782531133804546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-50527992669717659972013-03-18T19:07:36.585-04:002013-03-18T19:07:36.585-04:00Whoa! I am overwhelmed by all this awesome inform...Whoa! I am overwhelmed by all this awesome information. I'm gonna have to book mark this and keep coming back to it!<br />And I love that it is a "small sampling." BSBRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02520510454417941553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-68695431303044571392013-03-18T18:34:56.916-04:002013-03-18T18:34:56.916-04:00Such excellent advice. I will pass this post to my...Such excellent advice. I will pass this post to my other writer friends. I need to reexamine my pacing and conflict as I revise.LinWashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13041832821260168483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-78600190025075376982013-03-18T17:58:03.299-04:002013-03-18T17:58:03.299-04:00Oooh, I'm revising right now, so I'll keep...Oooh, I'm revising right now, so I'll keep this page up. Thanks, Janice, as always!Julie Musilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02150454913885915017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-57484004604414132272013-03-18T16:12:45.909-04:002013-03-18T16:12:45.909-04:00Natalie, thanks! It's the years and years of s...Natalie, thanks! It's the years and years of studying and talking about writing that's done it. Some days I think my brain is clogged with it all :)<br /><br />Tracy, glad it helps. It worked out to be a nice roundup.<br /><br />Jami, I can't always be objective either, though I do try. I think that's normal :) I use my own lists, too. Handy to have as reminders. Janice Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356672149097741248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901370917824739259.post-28215292333361240302013-03-18T15:54:15.761-04:002013-03-18T15:54:15.761-04:00This is an amazing post! Like Natalie said, even i...This is an amazing post! Like Natalie said, even if I step away, I have trouble being objective about my writing (one problem of having a photographic memory). :) So I like these cues I can use to look for specific issues.Jami Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00957122956518765455noreply@blogger.com